"For a world, by a world, that doesn't exist anymore"

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer) 09/01/2020 at 13:21 • Filed to: None

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Mercedes’ new iteration of its flagship sedan is due to be officially released in a few hours, and in a world devastated by a global pandemic that brought a significantly weakened economy , I wonder what world this new car will come into.

The S Class made a reputation for itself as a technological showcase; and as it becomes increasingly challenged by luxury SUVs, it will have to prove itself beyond its direct rivals like the A8 and the 7 series. With a few months to prepare for the new economic reality, Mercedes must’ve adjusted the prices for the S class; at least until a facelift.

But only time will tell if this generation S class will be as popular as its rivals, or at all successful.

WilliamsSW > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 13:38

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Lol. Look around. The target market for this car has benefited from the pandemic financially. Hopefully they raised pricing.

And made bullet proof glass standard. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 13:39

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Wasn’t the 1991/2 S-class also introduced during a recession? At least that’s what Doug DeMuro pointed out as relevant when he reviewed the W140.

Spanfeller is a twat > WilliamsSW 09/01/2020 at 13:41

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In some markets it might as well be.

Maybe I’m foolish to believe this, but excessive accumulation of wealth is a ticking time-bomb in a capitalist system. Maybe the richest have benefited from this short term... but eventually they must run out of clients....

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 13:42

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W126 and W140 debuted in weak economic times and both were resounding successes. Different world then of course, but if anything, the rich are better off now than in the past several decades, which could bode well. On the other hand, from the outside it looks more like a W222 facelift than a new model, which may not generate excitement.

I have no doubt it will be better at being a luxobarge than an A8 or 7er, but the market for that might be slowly waning. Way too much touchscreen tech in this thing, from what I have seen. As a somewhat traditionalist fan of the brand, it may be hitting the point where it is passing me by.

This is the new Belle Epoque.  In terms of socio-economics anyway, that world definitely still exists.  

Spanfeller is a twat > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 09/01/2020 at 13:43

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I think this is closer to a depression than a recession, but point taken. I think the S class is mostly aimed at people with... erm... lets call it stable assets. 

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 09/01/2020 at 13:44

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I think the touch screens are certainly intrusive, to the point that Mercedes maybe should offer two interior layouts; one classical one with many buttons and with fewer screens, and one with screens galore. 

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 13:44

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They might run out via tastes moving to bloated SUVs.

Just don’t make a model of a guillotine, you’ll trigger the shit out of the so-called right.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 13:46

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The fingerprints would drive me nuts. I can’t do it.

I like the widescreen LED displays, but I also like having traditional controls.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 09/01/2020 at 13:48

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by “they” I mean those who have gotten richer on the back of this pandemic... 

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 13:52

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I think many or even most of them have enough (often ill-gotten) wealth to last decades if not generations.   They got theirs, to hell with everyone else.

WilliamsSW > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 13:53

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Wealth inequality is a ticking time bomb in any system if it reaches a tipping point.

In the US we’ve tricked people into believing the rags to riches stories, which has held people at bay for a couple hundred years. 

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 09/01/2020 at 13:53

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Given how some customers are more traditional, I don’t think it would be excessive for Mercedes to design two interior clusters so to say... clearly the one with buttons would probably be more expensive... but I think it could increase sales. 

Spanfeller is a twat > WilliamsSW 09/01/2020 at 13:55

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Oh I think we’re falling into neo-feudalism here. My president is just subsiding the rich indirectly. 

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 13:55

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Or make it an option. These things must have margins to the point where such choice is possible.

For Sweden > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 14:04

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Dictators still need cars yo

Gerry197 > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 14:04

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To be honest, the people these vehicles are designed for are very fine in this current environment.

Spanfeller is a twat > For Sweden 09/01/2020 at 14:05

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Pullman will be released in a cave inside of a swiss mountain. 

Tapas > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 14:10

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The rich are fairly insulated from most of the world’s crisis.

The S Class will sell just fine.

PS9 > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 14:26

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significantly weakened economy

Weakened for who? The top 1% is doing great in this economy. Billionaires raked in ~$630B collectively during the pandemic. Online businesses are exploding. The richest man on earth made $13B in one day.

It’s true that millions are out of work and the economy faces at least a decade before it recovers fully, but do not kid yourself; not one person who can afford this car will suffer one bit for that, and quite a few of them will see massive gains because of it .

But only time will tell if this generation S class will be as popular as its rivals, or at all successful.

This here suggests that the S-Class 1) Is not successful, 2) has a popularity problem relative to others in it’s class and 3) is in a precarious position in the market. All of those are pretty laughable considering the S-Class has had the dominant position in the large luxury car market for almost 2 decades with an automotive graveyard full of would-be challengers (the CT6 being the latest entry) .The numbers behind the S , A8 and 7 Series reveal continuous market dominance for the S class, with the A8 offering a meager challenge at best. It’s the A8 and seven that must prove themselves to the S, not the other way round.  

The real rival to the S lately has been the Tesla Model S , which edged out the S class by a few cars last year and is looking to increase it’s market share this year, but there’s some pretty big caveats to that; 1) Tesla had to offer AMG-level performance and base-luxury car prices to do that 2) the S will go all electric sooner or later. Will Tesla be able to maintain competition against Merc once the performance advantage is gone?

Chariotoflove > WilliamsSW 09/01/2020 at 14:36

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That’s not accurate. It’s not a trick. I have seen rags to riches multiple times in my life, including in my own family. My father grew up a dirt poor dairy farmer who lost both his parents before his 20s. He became a moderately wealthy doctor and world-known researcher who was able to put four kids through college, three of them at Ive League schools, by doing things that benefited humanity. My mother the same, though she started from firmly middle class small business owning family from which no one had gone to college before her. My wife’s family grew up without her father and with four kids below the age of 14, struggling to pay the bills and having utilities turned off. Now, all four have advanced degrees, two of them doctorates, and two have their own companies, while one just sold her practice .

The rags to the kind of riches like Bezos or Cuban or Gates don’t happen often, because they statistically can’t, but “rags to doing really well” is common in our society. There is certainly wealth inequity, no one debates that, but there is far more class mobility in our country than in most of the world.

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/01/2020 at 14:42

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Sadly, anecdotes aside, there is a mountain of data showing economic mobility in the US is lagging compared to similarly developed nations (those damn socialists) and has also slacked off in recent times.

There was once real mobility, although not without costs, especially enjoyed by the me generation.  

But maybe some new trickle down will revive it, as it has worked brilliantly for the past ~40 years.

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/01/2020 at 15:06

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Great. So you jumped on to my reply to Williams to slap down and dismiss any value to what I had to contribute, referencing a   “mountain of data” to justify dismissing me out of hand . Then, in the same sentence, you added in a plug for your belief that more socialist systems work better for their people. And finally, you end your comment with a dose of snark about woefully misguided economic theory in the US.

I don’t mind you engaging me in real discussion, and I’m open to other viewpoints, including from people who don’t share mine, because that’s how I learn. But you seem to be in this mode where you’re just thrusting this “one-percenters are greedy bastards raping the country and holding down everyone else” and smacking down any perceived dissent.

That’s not a conversation, and it’s not respectful of me . Wealth disparity is a complex issue, and it deserves a more thoughtful and respectful conversation than that.

I know that was a bit of a rant, but I guess it hit a nerve when I felt attacked.

ranwhenparked > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 15:08

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Werent they doing the same thing with their front ends for awhile? A choice of t raditional Mercedes grille with stand-up hood ornament, or modern design with the badge in the grille.

Spanfeller is a twat > ranwhenparked 09/01/2020 at 15:13

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I think so? but making body kits must be easier than changing the interior panels. They could sell it like “designo traditional” or someshit akin to that and charge 7,000 for it

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/01/2020 at 15:16

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I apologize, I didn’t intend anything to be a personal insult.

But economic mobility has faltered in the US compared to competing nations. There is not far   more mobility here than in many similarly developed nations. I’m not making it up, it’s not my opinion. While there are plenty of success stories, there’s also plenty of stagnation , which appears especially strong in the past generation or so.   The course of the past 40 years might have harmed mobility more than helped it.

And yes, when people make decisions simply to lessen their tax responsibility, consequences and externalities be damned, I will paint them with a broad brush as greedy bastards raping the country.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 15:24

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eh..itll do fine...the people that could afford them can still afford them

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/01/2020 at 15:34

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Economic mobility has faltered. But it’s still here. The economy has changed over the last 40 years, and the skills in demand, and the education required, are different. Yes, there is an element of “I’ve got to get mine”, but it does no one any favors to just point at the rich folks and blame them as if they are actively working to hold down, create, and rob a “peasant class”. That’s just engendering anger, polarizing positions, and obscuring the genuine complex issues that need to be overcome.

Calling names and slinging arrows is the perfect way to insure that on one listens to you aside from those that already agreed with you to start with.

Textured Soy Protein > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 15:39

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And yet....

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

The chief executive of Rolls-Royce said demand for his company’s luxury cars is rebounding, helped by sales in Asia, and he is optimistic about the outlook for next year after the coronavirus pandemic hit consumer confidence and closed dealerships.

Torsten Muller-Otvos said the demand meant Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc ( RR.L ) was the first car company to resume car production in the United Kingdom on May 4.

“We see a very fruitful business now coming back from Asia, also Europe is coming back on track, the Americas just delivered an excellent July result and August result,” the boss of the BMW-owned ( BMWG.DE ) Rolls-Royce Motor Cars told Reuters.

“I am quite optimistic looking into 2021, particularly on the back of a very strong order bank we have already on our books.”

Muller-Otvos said his company has no plans to move production out of the United Kingdom because of Brexit.

“We are committed to Britain. I would even call us being part of the British industrial crown jewels,” he said. “For that reason, Rolls-Royce belongs to Britain.”

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove 09/01/2020 at 15:39

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The thing is, there are a lot of children right now who have virtually zero chance of making those dreams come true, because of shitty education systems. Mainly in poor urban areas, but it exists in rural areas too.

I’ve worked with students in Chicago and St Louis public schools. Many of them attended high schools that don’t even offer a 4th year of math or science. Doesn’t matter how smart or hard working those kids are. They’re not going to become doctors or scientists.

And yes I'm in a sour mood today lol

Chariotoflove > WilliamsSW 09/01/2020 at 15:54

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You’ve put your finger on the main problem, in my opinion. It’s about education. So we need to work on improving access to education. But you know, it’s not just that no one cares about the poor kids in the lousy school districts. Where I live, we have had shitty schools historically, despite there being plenty of tax base to fund them. And by the way, good old working class homeowners fight tooth and nail against increased assessments, not just the rich people. But no matter how much money we have, some districts can’t seem to do anything with it for their kids. Their are lots of reasons. Mismanagement of the money is one. Buy in from families in the district is another. It’s complex, and it’s hard. One thing it is not is the rich class actively working to keep the lower class down and prey on them. We Americans love our success stories. We need to figure out how to equip kids to make them.

kanadanmajava1 > ranwhenparked 09/01/2020 at 15:57

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They should definitely place the ornament in the grille. This way they could hide the radar nicely instead of using that ridiculous shiny piece of plastic. I wouldn’t buy an expensive car with such silly looking detail. No, not even used expensive ones .

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 16:05

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Wealthy people are still getting wealthier. They still own cars that they get driven in.

They still hire car services wherever their jet happens to land away from their personal automotive fleet.

It is just the rest of us that can’t afford mainstream new cars...

S-class is not mainstream.

New 6 and 7 -figure cars are being announced weekly, and in some cases, daily.

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove 09/01/2020 at 16:05

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I don’t think it’s an active effort by the rich to keep people poor.  It’s a shit ton of structural issues that keep people poor.  

Chariotoflove > WilliamsSW 09/01/2020 at 17:16

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Yep. 

TheBlightOfGrey > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 17:18

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Piketty, the French economist, would certainly agree with you. If you haven’t read his tome, Capital , you should, although at 650 pages with another 100 of footnotes it’s a bit of a slog. 

Spanfeller is a twat > TheBlightOfGrey 09/01/2020 at 17:20

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Oof, I know little about Picketty but I think he makes, at times, some straw-man arguments... though I recognize that he’s a very decorated economist for a reason. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 17:27

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You mean it wasn’t aimed for people like me who buy cars CPO at under half of the original new price?  ;(

TheBlightOfGrey > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 17:33

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Agreed. Some of it didn’t quite seem to follow .* The overall premise seemed sound for the most part . 

*maybe I should have read the footnotes more often

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/01/2020 at 17:34

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It’s definitely there, but others are doing it better, that’s my beef. Exceptionalism has died. We don’t have the same spectrum as 1955, or even 1970 when the luckiest generation were starting to get theirs (in a much less expensive and less competitive environment) and the US working class was at its zenith. For the past 40 years, roughly my lifetime, it has been slow but steady devolution, magically coinciding with trickle down fairytale. I don’t see this improving in the near future, as neither almost-identical political parties want to do anything about it (one makes it worse, one provides lip service but changes nothing).   All of the wealthy may not be alike, but those making choices which extend this m ess deserve all the anger aimed at them.

And yes, I am sorry I wasn’t diplomatic in my verbiage, my mistake. No harm intended.

Spanfeller is a twat > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 09/01/2020 at 17:52

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I don’t think your niche is particularly catered for by the manufacturers... alls I know is that people like you won’t be able to find Jaguars for nice prices in three or four years because the kind of people that have stable, sane assets don’t buy Jaguars first-hand ... They buy S classes.

But other than that, whenever you want to change your Jaggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg, I bet you’ll find lots of S classes just plateauing on the depreciation curve. Which makes you, as a consumer, more cautious and appreciative of finances!

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Spanfeller is a twat 09/01/2020 at 17:58

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Yeah, I was being mostly facetious. I did think about a CPO S-class but the XJ’s interior (and its steeper depreciation curve) wowed me.

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/01/2020 at 18:57

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Thanks for saying that.

I don’t think it’s all down to the dominance of supply side economics. A lot of it is that the economy has changed. We were much more a manufacturing based economy back then. K-12 education was much more up to handling the education needed to get a good job at the mills or the factory. We’ve been slowly shifting to a more tech and services based economy. I’m not sure we ever figured out how to do that. Lot s of people from the old economy are being left behind, and many don’t have the extra money needed for the level of  education that success today generally requires. I don’t know either if government at the national or even state level is apathetic or against a good educational system, although I’m sure there are some who are, but I suspect most of them don’t know how to fix things. Education, at the heart of the economy now, is a quintessentially local thing. Federal programs can help, but local districts have to figure out how to work with their students. Many are failing, but some stuff is working.

I’ll even say that many if not most businesses leaders today recognize that their best talent pool, and thus their profits, comes from a better educated America. But again, they may not know how to do that. Just throwing money at the problem never seems to work. Educators need to figure out what to do with the money.

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/01/2020 at 20:09

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I just find it funny that areas not as enamored with the idea of things trickling down have produced objectively superior results over the past ~40 years. Of course, there are cultural differences far removed from economic policy that likely have an influence, but American dominance of mobility and quality of life has slipped. It’s not encouraging for the future.

Definitely, blindly throwing money at a problem won’t help. At the same time, cutting budgets via constantly reducing tax proceeds also won’t help.  For a lot of that, in my opinion, we should see what works for others, and try to adapt it to this part of the world.  Some may not be comfortable, but often the only way to move forward is to leave that zone.   If only we could have a consistent credible national policy on anything! Seeing how things have regressed during the 2020 crisis, I am not holding my breath, and regarding education, especially with the current no-cred head honcho.

One thing I would like to see is to force the recipients of tax breaks to put the money to use, not be allowed to hoard it or buy back stock. Use it to grow business/build infrastructure, or lose the breaks and pay a sharp penalty on top of it. That might actually cause something to trickle down.

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/01/2020 at 21:49

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That’s not a bad idea with the tax breaks. Thing is, hoarding and stock buy backs are short term actions to apply the money immediately. Building the business and hiring more workers to grow it doesn’t come quickly to help an immediate crisis. It’s not the right kind of stimulus. 

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/01/2020 at 22:53

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And as we know, most execudrones can only think in the short term - the upcoming quarterly numbers are all that matter. That might be a part of the overall problem too, excuse the cliche, no thought of the big picture.

They weren’t doing much to build out and hire at much more than basic wages even before this crisis, but many say things never really recovered from 2008 - at least for those not at the top.  

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/01/2020 at 23:40

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I don’t think it’s that their drones who can see a big picture, although there are surely those type, and we can both think of examples . But they are beholden to their electorate, not our s. Their constituency is the common stock holders, and they hold a new election even more often than our House does. If they don’t cowtow to the short term profits, they risk their jobs, or at the very least, their credibility erodes quickly.

I think of the example of Rob Johnson, who created the retail structure for the Apple Store. JC Penny hired him to turn their store around, and he did a radical make over, taking the long view of moving into the higher margin retail area. Now, I think his plan was flawed in a number of ways, but the message here is that within a few quarters of stock losses after falling profits, they ousted him and replaced him with one of the old guard that had been CEO before. His vision was history faster than you can say “golden parachute”.

There are maybe some visionaries in the boardroom with the charisma to get people to follow their vision, but I think they are few. And it leads anyway to the problem you identify, with which I agree, that we don’t take the long view. It’s our own darned fault collectively.

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/02/2020 at 12:14

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T hat’s a good way to look at it - the drones are doing as told. So long as the markets are blindly seen as the key indicator of economic health, and as more and more of the masses must put their table scraps in various segments in order to have a little something after they eventually retire, there will be no long game . It’s a self-fulfilling race to the bottom that will likely lead to more privatization of profit and socialization of losses, or easier put, public sacrifice for private gain.

JCP was a dead man walking no matter who took the helm - I am sure they paid him enough to roll out a weird plan that wouldn’t work. If there’s anyone I don’t pity, it is the short term overcompensated CEO. As so much of that sector is just a revolving door good old boys club, he’ll land on his feet and retain his mansion etc.

This could just be a symptom of more and more people grasping at a smaller and smaller piece of the pie.  It might not end well -economic mismanagement and fear is a key factor in the mess we have in power today.

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/02/2020 at 16:10

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I think Johnson was someone who really wanted to do something worthwhile that he could be proud of for the long term. He wasn’t just profiteering. But, your point is well taken; he was well compensated, and he didn’t end up in line for food stamps after his ouster.

I think the best thing us little people can do to play any kind of long game for ourselves is continue to put those scraps into the markets in conservative positions. Pensions used to be safe, but not anymore, at least not with even the biggest private corporations, probably only government, and you can’t be mobile to get the most out of them. I’m in my university’s ORP program, and it’s doing well although it probably shouldn’t be as much as it is . Right now is one of those times when prices aren’t generally reflective of market health except for those companies who have found ways to prosper in the last 8 months. But over the decades the only thing I’m sure of is the market will appreciate, and as long as I have matching from my employer, I’ll take it as the safest option.

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/02/2020 at 17:26

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Oh yeah. He tried something a bit unconventional - too bad it didn’t work, but I think most of us saw that coming - the business model as a whole just isn’t sustainable with 20th century infrastructure. So much damage had also been done to brand equity by that point, even an awesome plan likely stood no chance. It’s not like he was a raider type vulture capitalist etc. And even so, he came from a line of massive salaries, got paid a massive salary to try something new, it didn’t work, and he received a gift that almost none of the population can even fathom (not sure what became of that stock). However, I suppose exec compensation is something for another diatribe. I’ve lived through a few corporate shakeups, and have seen some crazy stuff (prior CFO left with a cool 8 figure parting gift, IIRC).

As populations continue to increase and provided benefits don’t,  something will have to be done about retirement income in general - be it a UBI or something above the vintage throwback of Social Security that some seem to want to destroy. The insane public sector pensions will need to be reeled in as well - that’s something nobody seems to want to touch, retire after 25-30 years with 85% and platinum health bennies forever - offer a similar ROI to everyone or reform it. Until then, yeah, everyone should at least hit their employer match, at least those fortunate enough to have such a benefit.   They might keep up with real cost of living indices (which often increase faster than doctored inflation numbers) anyway.

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/02/2020 at 17:42

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I guess executives will negotiate for whatever pay they can get, and it’s the smart thing to do considering their employment is often not stable. I mean, I can’t blame them. There is the occasional person who says “I have enough money” and don’t draw a salary, although they often have other huge character flaws and aren’t saints, of course. I suppose the laborer is worth his wage, I like compensation that is performance based.

Entitlement programs like Social Security won’t stay viable forever, but no one can touch them. Anyone that proposes to  gets taken out behind the capital woodshed and lashed. I don’t know what you do about a train that’s heading toward a cliff with passengers that refuse to get off or apply brakes.

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/02/2020 at 20:21

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They can do it, but whether or not the cost justifies the benefit is up in the air. Kind of a dangerous game, like the “we must attract and retain talent” line. The often incestuous relationships between the C-suite and corporate boards are also amusing. I don’t have any sympathy for technically unstable employment at these high ranks , when the parting gift is usually more than a normal worker will make over numerous lifetimes , and the “leader” will  end up as a C-something somewhere else eventually. I don’t see many execs who loudly mess up and then are unable to find work, just like bad cops, they just find work in another organization. CEO to worker wage ratios are also out of control IMO, and although correlation doesn’t equal causation, they have exploded as the situation for the average worker has devolved over the past ~50 years. What a coincidence.

Social Security should be strengthened and reformed, not allowed to wither - the current gang of crooks and cons seems hell bent on the latter. If people are watching FOX News and huddling in fear over the protests now, let’s see what happens in another 30 years when a larger underclass hits retirement age with little to show for it - we ain’ t seen nothing yet. Of course, we could be into full blown totalitarianism by then.

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/02/2020 at 20:58

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I don’t think it’s the Fox News crowd that won’t do anything about SS. Neither will the NPR set. They’re all to blame. It won’t happen no matter who is in office because both sides are lobbied heavily.

Any company that tries to get a good CEO for modest compensation can’t find takers. Ben and Jerry struggled to find someone. People are in it to make money, not donate their time. And they don’t have to. 

fintail > Chariotoflove 09/02/2020 at 21:06

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I definitely agree. Both sides are more similar than they are apart on too many issues. But one side is more vocal about being afraid of the relatively mild unrest seen in this country right now - it isn’t going to get better if the underclass continues to grow. There will need to be massive reforms on several fronts, or this is just the beginning.

Sadly, even bad CEOs have healthy compensation, and they just get hired and hired again. Compared to many cost of living factors, workers overall are donating time in fear of having nothing. Maybe make pay dependent on results - if you don’t accomplish anything, you get literally nothing and/or forfeit what you were offered. If you create positive change, you cash in. All reward, no risk, will only last so long.  Employers collude on worker pay, but don’t on CEO pay, weird how that works.

Chariotoflove > fintail 09/03/2020 at 12:45

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Kinda like NFL coaches. The bad ones keep moving to new teams.